Holing out while holding the flag

[Stewart Rothnie]

I was told that holding the flag stick in one hand while putting with the
other (tap in) is against the rules and should be penalised. Although this
may be a bit stupid with regard to missing the putt, I can find nothing in
the rules that disallows this. Any comments?
S

[Kev Nurse]

Its completely legal (Dec 17-1/5) provided that the ball does not strike the
flagstick and the player does not use the flagstick to support himself while
putting.

Regards
Kev

[John Laird]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:13:19 +0000 (UTC), "Stewart Rothnie"

Post by Stewart Rothnie
I was told that holding the flag stick in one hand while putting with the
other (tap in) is against the rules and should be penalised. Although this
may be a bit stupid with regard to missing the putt, I can find nothing in
the rules that disallows this. Any comments?

Decision 17-1/5. No penalty provided the flagstick is, of course, removed
from the hole so that the ball does not strike it. As you say (or imply)
the Rules do not prevent the player attending the flagstick himself ! I
would be careful not to lean on it in a wind, though, lest you be held up
for using an artificial aid. But that would be pretty extreme.

[Crispin Roche]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:13:19 +0000 (UTC), "Stewart Rothnie"

Post by Stewart Rothnie
I was told that holding the flag stick in one hand while putting with the
other (tap in) is against the rules and should be penalised. Although this
may be a bit stupid with regard to missing the putt, I can find nothing in
the rules that disallows this. Any comments?

Decision 17-1/5 specifically covers this situation and it is perfectly
permissible, without penalty, for a player to hold the flag stick
whilst putting out. If the ball strikes the flag stick however there
is the standard penalty for a ball hitting an attended flag stick.

Crispin Roche

[Philip Bain]

Post by John Laird
On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:13:19 +0000 (UTC), "Stewart Rothnie"

Post by Stewart Rothnie
I was told that holding the flag stick in one hand while putting with the
other (tap in) is against the rules and should be penalised. Although this
may be a bit stupid with regard to missing the putt, I can find nothing in
the rules that disallows this. Any comments?

Decision 17-1/5 specifically covers this situation and it is perfectly
permissible, without penalty, for a player to hold the flag stick
whilst putting out. If the ball strikes the flag stick however there
is the standard penalty for a ball hitting an attended flag stick.
Crispin Roche

You'll find some seniors worried about this - I believe the rule was changed
about 20 years ago, prior to which it was unlawful. As usual, I may well be
wrong.
Philip B

[MaggieB]

I think you are right - in the "olden days" it was a penalty to putt whilst
holding the flag stick - so my grandfather told me!

Post by Philip Bain

Post by John Laird
On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:13:19 +0000 (UTC), "Stewart Rothnie"

Post by Stewart Rothnie
I was told that holding the flag stick in one hand while putting with the
other (tap in) is against the rules and should be penalised. Although this
may be a bit stupid with regard to missing the putt, I can find nothing in
the rules that disallows this. Any comments?

Decision 17-1/5 specifically covers this situation and it is perfectly
permissible, without penalty, for a player to hold the flag stick
whilst putting out. If the ball strikes the flag stick however there
is the standard penalty for a ball hitting an attended flag stick.
Crispin Roche

You'll find some seniors worried about this - I believe the rule was changed
about 20 years ago, prior to which it was unlawful. As usual, I may well be
wrong.
Philip B

[JPW]

Philip,

Purely from interest I have just hunted through Jonty's history of golf
site and I find nothing which supports such a penalty. I have an old
rules book from 1934 and the following I quote part of the rule as
written in the that edition some 70 years ago.

Rule 32. Removal of flagstick.

"Either side is entitled to have the flag-stick removed at any time but
a player may always have the position of the hole indicated to him; if
a player's ball strike the flagstick, which is held by or has been
removed BY HIMSELF, or his partner, or by either of the caddies, the
side shall lose the hole................etc."

Of course the specific instance of putting whilst holding the
flag-stick is not covered but by implication the penalty only applies
to the player if the ball strikes the flagstick when held by the player
and if it doesn't, then no penalty.

I also have a copy of the Decisions of 1929 time and there is no
reference to it in that volume either despite being 148 pages in
length, even in those days.

Of course I stand to be corrected, particularly by Jonty if he reads
this.

Pat

[Malcolm Wadsworth]

Post by JPW
Philip,
Purely from interest I have just hunted through Jonty's history of golf
site and I find nothing which supports such a penalty. I have an old
rules book from 1934 and the following I quote part of the rule as
written in the that edition some 70 years ago.
Rule 32. Removal of flagstick.
"Either side is entitled to have the flag-stick removed at any time but
a player may always have the position of the hole indicated to him; if
a player's ball strike the flagstick, which is held by or has been
removed BY HIMSELF, or his partner, or by either of the caddies, the
side shall lose the hole................etc."
Of course the specific instance of putting whilst holding the
flag-stick is not covered but by implication the penalty only applies
to the player if the ball strikes the flagstick when held by the player
and if it doesn't, then no penalty.
I also have a copy of the Decisions of 1929 time and there is no
reference to it in that volume either despite being 148 pages in
length, even in those days.
Of course I stand to be corrected, particularly by Jonty if he reads
this.
Pat

Pat,
Thanks for quoting Rule 32 from the 1934 edition as this is the first
edition, as far as I can tell, to mention the attendance of a flagstick.

Please name your price when you are ready to sell your 1929 copy of the
Decisions, or indeed any copies of the Decisions prior to 1990.
Regards,
Malcolm

[JPW]

Malcolm,

I know that it will be of more use to others (Jonty asked me for it
years ago) but I like having it on my shelf here. When I go on my last
happy round someone will probably sort through my room and say that
here are more old junky books and it will end up in the dustbin!

The old copy of my 1934 rules needs some attention but trying to find a
proper bookbinder who will repair it for me is like trying to get a
hole in one on a 600 yarder. (possible but highly unlikely) Anyone who
knows such a person I would appreciate a post.

[Simon Ireland]

Post by JPW
Malcolm,
The old copy of my 1934 rules needs some attention but trying to find a
proper bookbinder who will repair it for me is like trying to get a
hole in one on a 600 yarder. (possible but highly unlikely) Anyone who
knows such a person I would appreciate a post.

Try the National Trust, Pat.
I expect they could give you the name of a bookbinder.

[Brian Yare]

<< Rule 32. Removal of flagstick.

"Either side is entitled to have the flag-stick removed at any time but
a player may always have the position of the hole indicated to him; if
a player's ball strike the flagstick, which is held by or has been
removed BY HIMSELF, or his partner, or by either of the caddies, the
side shall lose the hole................etc."

Of course the specific instance of putting whilst holding the
flag-stick is not covered but by implication the penalty only applies
to the player if the ball strikes the flagstick when held by the player
and if it doesn't, then no penalty. >>

I read it that this old rule covers a flagstick held by himself.

[johnty]

Post by JPW
Of course I stand to be corrected, particularly by Jonty if he reads
this.

I don't think you will be corrected, Pat; My understanding is pretty much
the same..

[Malcolm Wadsworth]

Post by Philip Bain

Post by John Laird
On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:13:19 +0000 (UTC), "Stewart Rothnie"

Post by Stewart Rothnie
I was told that holding the flag stick in one hand while putting with the
other (tap in) is against the rules and should be penalised. Although this
may be a bit stupid with regard to missing the putt, I can find nothing in
the rules that disallows this. Any comments?

Decision 17-1/5 specifically covers this situation and it is perfectly
permissible, without penalty, for a player to hold the flag stick
whilst putting out. If the ball strikes the flag stick however there
is the standard penalty for a ball hitting an attended flag stick.
Crispin Roche

You'll find some seniors worried about this - I believe the rule was changed
about 20 years ago, prior to which it was unlawful. As usual, I may well be
wrong.
Philip B

Philip,
When a golfer gets 'caught out' on the Rules, a frequent defence -
particularly by seniors - is that the Rules must have changed since "Iwera
lad".
Most often there has been no change at all.
I have just had a quick look at Johnty's website www.ruleshistory.com
Currently the flagstick is covered by Rule 17 but there has been several
renumberings of the Rules over time.
The first mention of flagsticks I could find was in 1888.
1888 Rule 36 No mention in special stroke play Rules
1891 Rule 35 No mention in special stroke play Rules
1899 Rule 22 No mention in special stroke play Rules
1902 - 1904 Rule 21 Rule 11 in special stroke play Rules
1908 (wef 1.1.1909) - 1946 Rule 32. Rule 13 in special stroke play Rules
1950 Section X Rule 38
1952* - 1956 Section X Rule 34
1960-1980 Rule 34
1984 - present Rule 17

*1952 was the first version, jointly between the R&A and USGA

No mention I could find anywhwere of it being an infringement to hold the
flagstick while playing a stroke.

Regards,
Malcolm

[Philip Bain]

Post by JPW
Philip,
When a golfer gets 'caught out' on the Rules, a frequent defence -
particularly by seniors - is that the Rules must have changed since "Iwera
lad".
Most often there has been no change at all.
I have just had a quick look at Johnty's website www.ruleshistory.com
Currently the flagstick is covered by Rule 17 but there has been several
renumberings of the Rules over time.
The first mention of flagsticks I could find was in 1888.
1888 Rule 36 No mention in special stroke play Rules
1891 Rule 35 No mention in special stroke play Rules
1899 Rule 22 No mention in special stroke play Rules
1902 - 1904 Rule 21 Rule 11 in special stroke play Rules
1908 (wef 1.1.1909) - 1946 Rule 32. Rule 13 in special stroke play Rules
1950 Section X Rule 38
1952* - 1956 Section X Rule 34
1960-1980 Rule 34
1984 - present Rule 17
*1952 was the first version, jointly between the R&A and USGA
No mention I could find anywhwere of it being an infringement to hold the
flagstick while playing a stroke.
Regards,
Malcolm

Malcolm

Seems you are almost certainly right about me being "done" by the "iweralad"
contingent. I'm normally suitably sceptical, but then it's a bit more
obvious when people are claiming history for justification of the old
leather wedge ;-)

Philip