Dustin Johnson's penalty

[Dave Cornwell]

Personally I think there are several issues. Overall there was no choice but
to give him the penalty because he did ground his club in what had been
designated as a bunker. Nevertheless, the ruling makes a mockery of fair
play in sport and steps should be taken to prevent it happening again. I can
accept, because of the peculiar nature of this course, that it was a bunker
and that players were warned beforehand. What I can't accept is if that was
the case, why were members of the gallery allowed to stand in the bunker
while he was playing his shot! In the exceptional circumsatnces marshalls
should have cleared the area and made sure that Johnson was made aware that
this was a hazard. People that are prone to cheat and don't understand golf
find the rules of golf hard to accept and this kind of incident doesn't make
it any easier to justify them.
Dave

[Kev Nurse]

I was amazed to learn from the statement made by the Chairman of the
Rules Committee to the media that the cited area of dirt/sand was a
bunker. The Rules define a bunker as a hazard consisting of a
PREPARED area of ground, often a hollow, from which TURF OR SOIL HAS
BEEN REMOVED. It wasn't in a hollow, it certainly wasn't prepared and
there was no evidence that turf or soil had been removed. It didn't
meet the definition of a bunker, so the Club Committee and Tornament
Committee cannot make it so. Yes, the committee was acting correctly
by posting information in the changing rooms that players should be
aware that there are hundreds of bunkers, many in the rough, around
the course and that the players should be aware of this fact. They
were wrong to stiplute that any area of sand should be treated as a
bunker.

With millions of people (many not golfers) watching the event on TV,
the USPGA brought their own game into disrepute. Idiots.

Kev

[Dave Cornwell]

Post by Kev Nurse
I was amazed to learn from the statement made by the Chairman of the
Rules Committee to the media that the cited area of dirt/sand was a
bunker. The Rules define a bunker as a hazard consisting of a
PREPARED area of ground, often a hollow, from which TURF OR SOIL HAS
BEEN REMOVED. It wasn't in a hollow, it certainly wasn't prepared and
there was no evidence that turf or soil had been removed. It didn't
meet the definition of a bunker, so the Club Committee and Tornament
Committee cannot make it so. Yes, the committee was acting correctly
by posting information in the changing rooms that players should be
aware that there are hundreds of bunkers, many in the rough, around
the course and that the players should be aware of this fact. They
were wrong to stiplute that any area of sand should be treated as a
bunker.
With millions of people (many not golfers) watching the event on TV,
the USPGA brought their own game into disrepute. Idiots.
Kev

------------------
This one was in a hollow actually, although it was mostly filled with
people!

[Andy Neal]

NBC in their live transmission showed a graphic of each players ball &
flight while Johnson and Watney were walking down from the tee, and the
graphic clearly showed Johnsons ball in a bunker.

The NBC crew once again clearly demonstrated to all and sundry what a total
waste of time they are as sports broadcasters.........
AFTER, not DURING mind you, all the waiting, talking, discussing and to and
froing was all done one of them (possibly that idiot Jim Nance) comes out
with the statement that he had attended a meeting with other broadcasters
and the organisers where they were told all about the local tournament rules
regarding bunkers! He even stated that it had been the first thing on the
agenda! Moron! Why he could not have come out with this during the
discussions beats me and certainly did little to clear up a matter to the
viewing public that they clearly had knowledge about.

Faldo was commentating for NBC and was adamant on the slo-mos that Johnson
had grounded but was unsure about whether it was a bunker....as far as he
was concerned it did not LOOK like a bunker (per Kev) so he probably would
not have thought he was in a hazard either.

Having said that, for the organisers to allow spectators to trample areas
such as this and still treat the areas as designated hazards does in
retrospect seem a bit odd. I suspect that if you had visited the same area
last week it would have met all of the criteria as stated by Kev.

Johnson gamely came out of the locker room during the playoff and was asked
all the usual banal questions about how he felt (duh!) but although Johnson
was obviously disappointed he handled himself with utmost dignity and
conceded he should have been more aware of the local tournament rules. He
also pointed out that it would have been much worse if he had managed to
sink the putt!!

Andy Neal
Please remove the GREENCARD when you reply

Post by Kev Nurse
I was amazed to learn from the statement made by the Chairman of the
Rules Committee to the media that the cited area of dirt/sand was a
bunker. The Rules define a bunker as a hazard consisting of a
PREPARED area of ground, often a hollow, from which TURF OR SOIL HAS
BEEN REMOVED. It wasn't in a hollow, it certainly wasn't prepared and
there was no evidence that turf or soil had been removed. It didn't
meet the definition of a bunker, so the Club Committee and Tornament
Committee cannot make it so. Yes, the committee was acting correctly
by posting information in the changing rooms that players should be
aware that there are hundreds of bunkers, many in the rough, around
the course and that the players should be aware of this fact. They
were wrong to stiplute that any area of sand should be treated as a
bunker.
With millions of people (many not golfers) watching the event on TV,
the USPGA brought their own game into disrepute. Idiots.
Kev

[Andy Neal]

Sorry....I should have pointed out that the meeting referred to was before
the tournament started!
Andy

[JohnT]

Post by Andy Neal
NBC in their live transmission showed a graphic of each players ball &
flight while Johnson and Watney were walking down from the tee, and the
graphic clearly showed Johnsons ball in a bunker.
The NBC crew once again clearly demonstrated to all and sundry what a total
waste of time they are as sports broadcasters.........
AFTER, not DURING mind you, all the waiting, talking, discussing and to and
froing was all done one of them (possibly that idiot Jim Nance) comes out
with the statement that he had attended a meeting with other broadcasters
and the organisers where they were told all about the local tournament rules
regarding bunkers! He even stated that it had been the first thing on the
agenda! Moron! Why he could not have come out with this during the
discussions beats me and certainly did little to clear up a matter to the
viewing public that they clearly had knowledge about.
Faldo was commentating for NBC and was adamant on the slo-mos that Johnson
had grounded but was unsure about whether it was a bunker....as far as he
was concerned it did not LOOK like a bunker (per Kev) so he probably would
not have thought he was in a hazard either.
Having said that, for the organisers to allow spectators to trample areas
such as this and still treat the areas as designated hazards does in
retrospect seem a bit odd. I suspect that if you had visited the same area
last week it would have met all of the criteria as stated by Kev.
Johnson gamely came out of the locker room during the playoff and was asked
all the usual banal questions about how he felt (duh!) but although Johnson
was obviously disappointed he handled himself with utmost dignity and
conceded he should have been more aware of the local tournament rules. He
also pointed out that it would have been much worse if he had managed to
sink the putt!!
Andy Neal

Post by Kev Nurse
I was amazed to learn from the statement made by the Chairman of the
Rules Committee to the media that the cited area of dirt/sand was a
bunker.  The Rules define a bunker as a hazard consisting of a
PREPARED area of ground, often a hollow, from which TURF OR SOIL HAS
BEEN REMOVED.  It wasn't in a hollow, it certainly wasn't prepared and
there was no evidence that turf or soil had been removed.  It didn't
meet the definition of a bunker, so the Club Committee and Tornament
Committee cannot make it so.  Yes, the committee was acting correctly
by posting information in the changing rooms that players should be
aware that there are hundreds of bunkers, many in the rough, around
the course and that the players should be aware of this fact.  They
were wrong to stiplute that any area of sand should be treated as a
bunker.
With millions of people (many not golfers) watching the event on TV,
the USPGA brought their own game into disrepute.  Idiots.
Kev

The Golf Canada website, in a discussion on this incident, reported
that the player admitted that he had not read the notice in the locker
room, the notice on the teeing ground of each hole or the Notice to
Players. It distresses me when I see on a very regular basis players
taking the Notice to Players from the starter and binning it, or just
stuffing it unread into their golf bag. Every junior tournament that I
work at as a Rules Official has a mandatory player's meeting the
evening before it begins. We always make a point of telling them to
read all of the material they have been given. Sadly I doubt that this
incident will change their behavior regarding that special pocket the
manufactures put on their golf bags especially designed to hold "stuff
I never read".

JohnT

[Dave Robinson]

Post by Kev Nurse
I was amazed to learn from the statement made by the Chairman of the
Rules Committee to the media that the cited area of dirt/sand was a
bunker. The Rules define a bunker as a hazard consisting of a
PREPARED area of ground, often a hollow, from which TURF OR SOIL HAS
BEEN REMOVED. It wasn't in a hollow, it certainly wasn't prepared and
there was no evidence that turf or soil had been removed. It didn't
meet the definition of a bunker, so the Club Committee and Tornament
Committee cannot make it so. Yes, the committee was acting correctly
by posting information in the changing rooms that players should be
aware that there are hundreds of bunkers, many in the rough, around
the course and that the players should be aware of this fact. They
were wrong to stiplute that any area of sand should be treated as a
bunker.
With millions of people (many not golfers) watching the event on TV,
the USPGA brought their own game into disrepute. Idiots.

As I understand it, it WASN'T a bunker as such, but the local rules stated
that all areas of sanded wasteland were to be treated in the same way as
bunkers.

Dave

[Dave Cornwell]

Post by Dave Robinson

Post by Kev Nurse
I was amazed to learn from the statement made by the Chairman of the
Rules Committee to the media that the cited area of dirt/sand was a
bunker. The Rules define a bunker as a hazard consisting of a
PREPARED area of ground, often a hollow, from which TURF OR SOIL HAS
BEEN REMOVED. It wasn't in a hollow, it certainly wasn't prepared and
there was no evidence that turf or soil had been removed. It didn't
meet the definition of a bunker, so the Club Committee and Tornament
Committee cannot make it so. Yes, the committee was acting correctly
by posting information in the changing rooms that players should be
aware that there are hundreds of bunkers, many in the rough, around
the course and that the players should be aware of this fact. They
were wrong to stiplute that any area of sand should be treated as a
bunker.
With millions of people (many not golfers) watching the event on TV,
the USPGA brought their own game into disrepute. Idiots.

As I understand it, it WASN'T a bunker as such, but the local rules stated
that all areas of sanded wasteland were to be treated in the same way as
bunkers.
Dave

--------------------
With hindsight and now the sand has settled I would imagine that most pros,
including Johnson, would instinctively not ground their club while standing
in what was clearly fairly soft sand. Probably just an abberation in the
heat of battle. As we all know, golf can play some cruel tricks with the
mind ;-(
Dave C

[david s-a]

Post by Dave Robinson
As I understand it, it WASN'T a bunker as such, but the local rules
stated that all areas of sanded wasteland were to be treated in the same
way as bunkers.
Dave

That make sense out of the ruling then.......and the penalty is just.

It would also make sense to me if the player had queried a Rules
Official to confirm the status of the wasteland....just playing willy
nilly out of it without even checking makes no sense at all!

david

[Paul Schmitz-Josten]

Post by Dave Robinson
As I understand it, it WASN'T a bunker as such, but the local rules stated
that all areas of sanded wasteland were to be treated in the same way as
bunkers.

The local rule is different - this is what was posted in rec.sport.golf:

|Notice to Competitors - Bunkers
|
|1. All areas of the course that were designed and built as sand bunkers
|will be played as bunkers (hazards), whether or not they have been
|raked. This will mean that many bunkers positioned outside of the
|ropes, as well as some areas of bunkers inside the ropes, close to the
|rope line, will likely include numerous footprints, heel prints and
|tire tracks during the play of the Championship. Such irregularities of
|surface are a part of the game and no free relief will be available
|from these conditions. All bunkers inside the ropes will be raked each
|morning prior to play as normal.
|
|2.  The local rule allowing players to move stones in bunkers will be
|in effect.

The "only" difficulty for the players was then to decide if a sandy patch
would have been "designed and built as (a) sand bunker".
This leaves one question: Were design plans handed out to them??

Ciao,

Paul

[Mark Myers]

On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:37:27 +0200, Paul Schmitz-Josten said...

Post by Paul Schmitz-Josten

Post by Dave Robinson
As I understand it, it WASN'T a bunker as such, but the local rules stated
that all areas of sanded wasteland were to be treated in the same way as
bunkers.

|Notice to Competitors - Bunkers
|
|1. All areas of the course that were designed and built as sand bunkers
|will be played as bunkers (hazards), whether or not they have been
|raked. This will mean that many bunkers positioned outside of the
|ropes, as well as some areas of bunkers inside the ropes, close to the
|rope line, will likely include numerous footprints, heel prints and
|tire tracks during the play of the Championship. Such irregularities of
|surface are a part of the game and no free relief will be available
|from these conditions. All bunkers inside the ropes will be raked each
|morning prior to play as normal.
|
|2.  The local rule allowing players to move stones in bunkers will be
|in effect.
The "only" difficulty for the players was then to decide if a sandy patch
would have been "designed and built as (a) sand bunker".
This leaves one question: Were design plans handed out to them??

If they are unsure they only have to ask. And let's not forget that
Johnson admits that he didn't even read the local rule.

[Paul Schmitz-Josten]

Post by Mark Myers

Post by Paul Schmitz-Josten
The "only" difficulty for the players was then to decide if a sandy patch
would have been "designed and built as (a) sand bunker".
This leaves one question: Were design plans handed out to them??

If they are unsure they only have to ask. And let's not forget that
Johnson admits that he didn't even read the local rule.

Correct. I have no doubt that the penalty on Johnson was justified and - if
he had read the local rules - he should have asked a rules official (which
was said to be hindered by the croud to appear on the spot in time).

Here I only wanted
1) to correct an incorrect statement on the rules and
2) give my opinion on the IMHO poor phrasing.

Ciao,

Paul

[johnty]

Post by Dave Robinson

Post by Kev Nurse
I was amazed to learn from the statement made by the Chairman of the
Rules Committee to the media that the cited area of dirt/sand was a
bunker.  The Rules define a bunker as a hazard consisting of a
PREPARED area of ground, often a hollow, from which TURF OR SOIL HAS
BEEN REMOVED.  It wasn't in a hollow, it certainly wasn't prepared and
there was no evidence that turf or soil had been removed.  It didn't
meet the definition of a bunker, so the Club Committee and Tornament
Committee cannot make it so.  Yes, the committee was acting correctly
by posting information in the changing rooms that players should be
aware that there are hundreds of bunkers, many in the rough, around
the course and that the players should be aware of this fact.  They
were wrong to stiplute that any area of sand should be treated as a
bunker.
With millions of people (many not golfers) watching the event on TV,
the USPGA brought their own game into disrepute.  Idiots.

As I understand it, it WASN'T a bunker as such, but the local rules stated
that all areas of sanded wasteland were to be treated in the same way as
bunkers.

It is a bona fide bunker, Dave. The tv shot did not give that
impression but search for a picture or graphic of the hole in question
- you will see that it most definitely is a bunker.

[Paul Schmitz-Josten]

Post by Dave Cornwell
I can
accept, because of the peculiar nature of this course, that it was a bunker
and that players were warned beforehand. What I can't accept is if that was
the case, why were members of the gallery allowed to stand in the bunker
while he was playing his shot! In the exceptional circumsatnces marshalls
should have cleared the area and made sure that Johnson was made aware that
this was a hazard.

I fully agree to this!

Having seen the scene several times (I recorded the victory of Martin
Kaymer - hurray!) I can say that I've never seen the crowd standing in a
bunker while a player would make his stroke. He even did not stand in the
sand (which of course doesn't change the ruling aspect).
His impression must have been of a small patch (20 square feet?) of sandy
area, may part of a path, with only 5 yards of fringe visible in the
"usual" gap which they opened for him.

O.k., he is responsible to obey the rules, and if he didn't read the local
rules, he failed twice. But IMO this hazard was presented to him like a
trap, and he trapped into it.

Ciao,

Paul

[M L Wadsworth]

Post by Paul Schmitz-Josten
Having seen the scene several times (I recorded the victory of Martin
Kaymer - hurray!) I can say that I've never seen the crowd standing in a
bunker while a player would make his stroke. He even did not stand in the
sand (which of course doesn't change the ruling aspect).
His impression must have been of a small patch (20 square feet?) of sandy
area, may part of a path, with only 5 yards of fringe visible in the
"usual" gap which they opened for him.
O.k., he is responsible to obey the rules, and if he didn't read the local
rules, he failed twice. But IMO this hazard was presented to him like a
trap, and he trapped into it.
Ciao,
Paul

Where was the walking Rules Official with Johnson's group while all this was
going on?

I think had John Turner been officiating, he would have said: " Be aware,
your ball is in a hazard".


Malcolm

[Paul Schmitz-Josten]

Post by M L Wadsworth
Where was the walking Rules Official with Johnson's group while all this was
going on?
I think had John Turner been officiating, he would have said: " Be aware,
your ball is in a hazard".

Rumour from r.s.g has it that he was hindered by the density of the crowd
to get to the spot in time which may have been 100 yards off the fairway.

Ciao,

Paul