Rules Question

[Thomo]

After searching for my ball in the tree's for about three minutes to keep up
with play i started to walk back to the tee, i teed a ball up but before
playing it my opponent found my ball he said because five minutes had not
passed i could play the original ball was this correct?

Many Thanks

Andy

[Paul Schmitz-Josten]

Post by Thomo
After searching for my ball in the tree's for about three minutes to keep up
with play i started to walk back to the tee, i teed a ball up but before
playing it my opponent found my ball he said because five minutes had not
passed i could play the original ball was this correct?

Yes.

If the ball is found within 5 mins and a new ball has not been put into
play, the first ball is still "ball in play".
Teeing up a ball in the tee box does not put the ball into play. Here you
have to perform a stroke to make it "ball in play". If you miss the ball
during the tee shot, it is in play nevertheless, even if it stayed on the
tee.

But, if you drop a ball through the course (or place it on the green),
it becomes "ball in play" immediately (RoG 20-4). Having done so,
the first ball is "lost", you must not play it any more.

BTW: Having played between the trees you might have considered to play
a provisional ball. I have evidence that this doesn't hurt at all ;->

Ciao,

Paul

[JohnT]

Post by Paul Schmitz-Josten

Post by Thomo
After searching for my ball in the tree's for about three minutes to keep up
with play i started to walk back to the tee, i teed a ball up but before
playing it my opponent found my ball he said because five minutes had not
passed i could play the original ball was this correct?

Yes.
If the ball is found within 5 mins and a new ball has not been put into
play, the first ball is still "ball in play".
Teeing up a ball in the tee box does not put the ball into play. Here you
have to perform a stroke to make it "ball in play". If you miss the ball
during the tee shot, it is in play nevertheless, even if it stayed on the
tee.
But, if you drop a ball through the course (or place it on the green),
it becomes "ball in play" immediately (RoG 20-4). Having done so,
the first ball is "lost", you must not play it any more.
BTW: Having played between the trees you might have considered to play
a provisional ball. I have evidence that this doesn't hurt at all ;->
Ciao,
Paul

Hi Paul,

You didn't deal with the case where the player goes back to the tee
and drops a ball within the teeing ground.

JohnT

[Paul Schmitz-Josten]

JohnT in

Post by JohnT
You didn't deal with the case where the player goes back to the tee
and drops a ball within the teeing ground.

That's the same than a teed ball, see this definition
"A ball is "in play" as soon as the player has made a stroke on the teeing
ground. ."

This is quoted in Decision 27-1/1 stating that a teed ball is not in play.
Alas, the definition says that any ball on the teeing ground is
"not in play" before the first stroke. Thus, your ball dropped within the
teeing ground is _not_ in play.

Decision 27-1/2 describes the opposite outcome for a ball dropped anywhere
else. Acc. to RoG 20-4, "A substituted ball becomes the ball in play when
it has been dropped or placed. " which is valid anywhere else than on the
tee.

Further to that, if you happened to have only pushed the ball from the tee
with the first stroke leaving it on the teeing area, you must not re-tee it
for the second stroke. But, if you have to repeat this second shot due to
OOB etc, you may tee up the next ball according to RoG 20-5.

Golf is simple, ain't it?

Ciao,

Paul

[JohnT]

Post by Paul Schmitz-Josten
JohnT in

Post by JohnT
You didn't deal with the case where the player goes back to the tee
and drops a ball within the teeing ground.

That's the same than a teed ball, see this definition
"A ball is "in play" as soon as the player has made a stroke on the teeing
ground. ."
This is quoted in Decision 27-1/1 stating that a teed ball is not in play.
Alas, the definition says that any ball on the teeing ground is
"not in play" before the first stroke. Thus, your ball dropped within the
teeing ground is _not_ in play.
Decision 27-1/2 describes the opposite outcome for a ball dropped anywhere
else. Acc. to RoG 20-4, "A substituted ball becomes the ball in play when
it has been dropped or placed. " which is valid anywhere else than on the
tee.
Further to that, if you happened to have only pushed the ball from the tee
with the first stroke leaving it on the teeing area, you must not re-tee it
for the second stroke. But, if you have to repeat this second shot due to
OOB etc, you may tee up the next ball according to RoG 20-5.
Golf is simple, ain't it?
Ciao,
Paul

I knew that you knew that Paul.

It leads to an interesting question:

The player arrives at the teeing ground, tees a ball, makes a swing at
it with his driver but misses the ball completely. He picks up the
ball, removes the tee and drops the ball where the tee had been. He
then strikes the ball using his three-wood. What does he lie?

JohnT

[Paul Schmitz-Josten]

JohnT in

Post by JohnT

Post by JohnT
You didn't deal with the case where the player goes back to the tee
and drops a ball within the teeing ground.

<snip>

Post by JohnT
I knew that you knew that Paul.

I had to read the decisions to understand the solution, as there is a
double ruling in it:

The ball replayed from the tee follows the definition "ball in play"
instead of RoG 20-4 which also might apply.

Post by JohnT
The player arrives at the teeing ground, tees a ball, makes a swing at
it with his driver but misses the ball completely. He picks up the
ball, removes the tee and drops the ball where the tee had been. He
then strikes the ball using his three-wood. What does he lie?

4, AFAIK.

The more subtle way to mislead the opposite is to say "he then adjusts the
tee height by 3 mm, leaving the ball on the tee during this action."

It's time for a Christmas quiz, isn't it?

<g>

Paul

[20feetputt]

Post by Paul Schmitz-Josten

Post by JohnT
The player arrives at the teeing ground, tees a ball, makes a swing at
it with his driver but misses the ball completely. He picks up the ball,
removes the tee and drops the ball where the tee had been. He then
strikes the ball using his three-wood. What does he lie?

4, AFAIK.
The more subtle way to mislead the opposite is to say "he then adjusts
the tee height by 3 mm, leaving the ball on the tee during this action."
It's time for a Christmas quiz, isn't it?
<g>
Paul

Paul,

You are referring to D18-2a/1 which is not quite the same situation.

Actually he lies 2.
By removing the tee and dropping the ball he took relief from a movable
obstruction (R24-1b).

Cheers,

Eric

[Ron Todd]

Post by 20feetputt

Post by Paul Schmitz-Josten

Post by JohnT
The player arrives at the teeing ground, tees a ball, makes a swing at
it with his driver but misses the ball completely. He picks up the ball,
removes the tee and drops the ball where the tee had been. He then
strikes the ball using his three-wood. What does he lie?

4, AFAIK.
The more subtle way to mislead the opposite is to say "he then adjusts
the tee height by 3 mm, leaving the ball on the tee during this action."
It's time for a Christmas quiz, isn't it?
<g>
Paul

Paul,
You are referring to D18-2a/1 which is not quite the same situation.
Actually he lies 2.

I don't think so

[johnty]

Post by Ron Todd

Post by 20feetputt
Actually he lies 2.

I don't think so

Why not?

[Ron Todd]

Post by johnty

Post by Ron Todd

Post by 20feetputt
Actually he lies 2.

I don't think so

Why not?

I had thought that the ball had been dropped incorrectly because the
spot hadn't been marked. I now see that there is no requirement to
mark the spot in this way - I think I've become used to the practice
of marking NPOR and everything else, and so was mistaken about this
requirement. In fact, I can see that a tee put in the position of the
original tee - or even leaving the original tee in position - could
cause confusion in the monthly medal.

:-)

[JohnT]

Post by Ron Todd

Post by johnty

Post by Ron Todd

Post by 20feetputt
Actually he lies 2.

I don't think so

Why not?

I had thought that the ball had been dropped incorrectly because the
spot hadn't been marked. I now see that there is no requirement to
mark the spot in this way - I think I've become used to the practice
of marking NPOR and everything else, and so was mistaken about this
requirement. In fact, I can see that a tee put in the position of the
original tee - or even leaving the original tee in position - could
cause confusion in the monthly medal.
:-)

I'm late in getting back to my own question - sorry about that.

The correct answer is indeed 2 for the reason stated.

Nice to hear from you Ron. Don't you miss the GB & I Rules Quiz? We
are hoping to start up a version of it here in Ontario this winter.

JohnT

[Ron Todd]

Post by JohnT

Post by Ron Todd

Post by johnty

Post by Ron Todd

Post by 20feetputt
Actually he lies 2.

I don't think so

Why not?

I had thought that the ball had been dropped incorrectly because the
spot hadn't been marked. I now see that there is no requirement to
mark the spot in this way - I think I've become used to the practice
of marking NPOR and everything else, and so was mistaken about this
requirement. In fact, I can see that a tee put in the position of the
original tee - or even leaving the original tee in position - could
cause confusion in the monthly medal.
:-)

I'm late in getting back to my own question - sorry about that.
The correct answer is indeed 2 for the reason stated.
Nice to hear from you Ron. Don't you miss the GB & I Rules Quiz?  We
are hoping to start up a version of it here in Ontario this winter.
JohnT

I do miss it, John, mostly for the social aspects. I must (if I
haven't done so before) note that Gog Magog were extraordinarily
sporting towards us in 2004, very friendly and congratulatory. I
recall playing their quiz team at darts in the Jigger Inn late at
night: we seemed to get in just as the door was closing, yet somehow
we were still there well over an hour later. I suspect the Gog Magog
captain had had a quiet word with the bar staff.

[j.valentin]

Post by 20feetputt
Actually he lies 2.
By removing the tee and dropping the ball he took relief from a movable
obstruction (R24-1b).

rule 24-1b does only alow that "through the green".
The teeing ground is not "through the green".

[david s-a]

Post by j.valentin

Actually he lies 2. By removing the tee and dropping the ball he took
relief from a movable obstruction (R24-1b).

rule 24-1b does only alow that "through the green".
The teeing ground is not "through the green".

Rule 24-1b does not limit the procedure to 'through the green', 'in a
hazard' or 'on the putting green'. It is merely silent on the matter of
the 'teeing ground'. However Rule 24-2(iv) does include reference to the
'teeing ground'.....and a reasonable man/woman would take it as read
that a R24-1b procedure on the teeing ground would be similarly
allowable. I have seen this question before and I believe the procedure
was first high-lighted as acceptable by a Rules luminary from either
Canada or the USA. It might even have been one of those 'US specific'
Decisions not normally recognized by the R&A.

cheers
david

[david s-a]

Post by david s-a

Post by j.valentin

Actually he lies 2. By removing the tee and dropping the ball he took
relief from a movable obstruction (R24-1b).

rule 24-1b does only alow that "through the green".
The teeing ground is not "through the green".

Rule 24-1b does not limit the procedure to 'through the green', 'in a
hazard' or 'on the putting green'. It is merely silent on the matter of
the 'teeing ground'. However Rule 24-2(iv) does include reference to the
'teeing ground'.....and a reasonable man/woman would take it as read
that a R24-1b procedure on the teeing ground would be similarly
allowable. I have seen this question before and I believe the procedure
was first high-lighted as acceptable by a Rules luminary from either
Canada or the USA. It might even have been one of those 'US specific'
Decisions not normally recognized by the R&A.
cheers
david

Actually, further to the above, Decision 25-2/8 (final sentence)
endorses the views expressed here. "The same principle would apply to
other relief situations that do not contemplate relief being required
within the teeing ground (e.g. Rule 24-1b)."

I knew I'd seen it somewhere!

cheers
david

[JohnT]

Post by david s-a

Post by david s-a

Post by j.valentin

Actually he lies 2. By removing the tee and dropping the ball he took
relief from a movable obstruction (R24-1b).

rule 24-1b does only alow that "through the green".
The teeing ground is not "through the green".

Rule 24-1b does not limit the procedure to 'through the green', 'in a
hazard' or 'on the putting green'. It is merely silent on the matter of
the 'teeing ground'. However Rule 24-2(iv) does include reference to the
'teeing ground'.....and a reasonable man/woman would take it as read
that a R24-1b procedure on the teeing ground would be similarly
allowable. I have seen this question before and I believe the procedure
was first high-lighted as acceptable by a Rules luminary from either
Canada or the USA. It might even have been one of those 'US specific'
Decisions not normally recognized by the R&A.
cheers
david

Actually, further to the above, Decision 25-2/8 (final sentence)
endorses the views expressed here. "The same principle would apply to
other relief situations that do not contemplate relief being required
within the teeing ground (e.g. Rule 24-1b)."
I knew I'd seen it somewhere!
cheers
david

David,

I first came across this question at an RCGA rules workshop in the
spring of '08. It was said at that time that it was a recent USGA
ruling, and of course not all rulings, even unique ones, make it into
the Decisions book, else it would be six inches thick.

JohnT

[j.val]

Still not got it.

Which rule states tha a tee is a mobable obstruction?

How can rule 24-2(iv) aplay? Rule 24-2 is about relief for Immovable
Obstructions.

Post by david s-a

Post by j.valentin

Actually he lies 2. By removing the tee and dropping the ball he took
relief from a movable obstruction (R24-1b).

rule 24-1b does only alow that "through the green".
The teeing ground is not "through the green".

Rule 24-1b does not limit the procedure to 'through the green', 'in a
hazard' or 'on the putting green'. It is merely silent on the matter of
the 'teeing ground'. However Rule 24-2(iv) does include reference to the
'teeing ground'.....and a reasonable man/woman would take it as read that
a R24-1b procedure on the teeing ground would be similarly allowable. I
have seen this question before and I believe the procedure was first
high-lighted as acceptable by a Rules luminary from either Canada or the
USA. It might even have been one of those 'US specific' Decisions not
normally recognized by the R&A.
cheers
david

[david s-a]

Post by j.val
Still not got it.
Which rule states tha a tee is a mobable obstruction?

See Rules of Golf, Definitions ==> Obstructions. An "obstruction' is
anything artificial......", "...An obstruction is a movable obstruction
if it may be moved without unreasonable effort...."

Post by j.val
How can rule 24-2(iv) aplay? Rule 24-2 is about relief for Immovable
Obstructions.

Reference to Rule 24-2(iv) was only made in the context of comment that
the relief procedure available under that rule should similarly apply to
Rule 24-1b. In fact Decision 25-2/8 endorses that view and gives
official authority to the fact. Although that Decision primarily
discusses the issue of a 'ball embedded in the teeing ground' where
"...the Rules of Golf do not contemplate such a situation, in equity
(Rule 1-4), the player is entitled to relief without penalty..." and
"..must follow the procedure prescribed in Rule 25-2........".

The Decision finally decrees that "..the same principle would apply to
other relief situations that do not contemplate relief being required
within the teeing ground (e.g. Rule24-1b)...."

There it is, in black and white!!

cheers
David

Post by j.val

Post by david s-a

Post by j.valentin

Actually he lies 2. By removing the tee and dropping the ball he took
relief from a movable obstruction (R24-1b).

rule 24-1b does only alow that "through the green".
The teeing ground is not "through the green".

Rule 24-1b does not limit the procedure to 'through the green', 'in a
hazard' or 'on the putting green'. It is merely silent on the matter of
the 'teeing ground'. However Rule 24-2(iv) does include reference to the
'teeing ground'.....and a reasonable man/woman would take it as read that
a R24-1b procedure on the teeing ground would be similarly allowable. I
have seen this question before and I believe the procedure was first
high-lighted as acceptable by a Rules luminary from either Canada or the
USA. It might even have been one of those 'US specific' Decisions not
normally recognized by the R&A.
cheers
david

[Paul Schmitz-Josten]

Post by 20feetputt
Actually he lies 2.
By removing the tee and dropping the ball he took relief from a movable
obstruction (R24-1b).

Is there any evidence or decision?

I'd regard it beyond equity to declare any item an obstruction which was
introduced to the play by the player himself only one stroke before.

Ciao,

Paul