Fair disqualification?

[PeterL]

We play our competitions in 3's and, in line with common practice, mark each
others cards.

Yesterday a player was disqualified for signing for a wrong score. These
are the circumstances.

Player A marked player B's card and player B marked for player C. At the
end of the round, player B had a good score. Player's A & B cross-checked
player B's score, agreed the score card marked by player A was correct, and
signed and handed the cards in. When the club secretary inputted player B's
score into the system, the software highlighted a difference in the gross
score for the front 9. Yes, players A & B both managed to mis-count; they
recorded 42 strokes for 9 holes when it should have been 40. This elevated
player B into a competition winning position.

As a result of the 'error', the club secretary interrogated the card marked
by player B. What he found was that player B had 'wrongly' entered two of
his own scores in the 'marker's' column; two 5's should have been 4's. Why
he did this, and why it wasn't detected when the cards were cross-checked,
nobody knows. (By this time, player B had left the golf club.)

On the scorecard itself, both the marker and the player signs. On the card
marked by player A, player A signed as 'marker', and player B signed as
'player'. On the card marked by player B, he signs as 'marker'.

Is the disqualification fair and correct?

Is it allowable for a player not to record his own score on the card he is
marking? Whether he should or not, I suppose, is a different argument?

Thanks for any comments

[Mark Myers]

On Sun, 7 Aug 2011 10:11:33 +0100, PeterL said...

Post by PeterL
Thanks for any comments

Peter, as far as I can see, you haven't said directly what A wrote down
for B on B's card, which B signed for. You have only told us what B
wrote down on C's card in the marker's column, which I think is only
relevant for checking purposes.

I don't understand how the software could have noticed a difference in
player B's score - presumably the club sec only entered it once? Was it
a difference between gross score and Stableford?

But anyway, it is the gross score on B's card which is important. If he
signed for a wrong score that was higher than what it should have been,
the score should stand, and he should not be DQ'ed, regardless of what
he or his marker wrote down for his Stableford points. At least as far
as I understand the rules, but I am not always right.

The rule in question is 6-6 Scoring in Stroke Play, specifically 6-6 d,
and the Note 1 is relevant:

6-6 d. Wrong Score for Hole
The competitor is responsible for the correctness of the score recorded
for each hole on his score card. If he returns a score for any hole
lower than actually taken, he is disqualified.
If he returns a score for any hole higher than actually taken, the score
as returned stands.

Note 1:
The Committee is responsible for the addition of scores and application
of the handicap recorded on the score card - see Rule 33-5

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rules-and-Decisions/

[PeterL]

Post by Mark Myers
On Sun, 7 Aug 2011 10:11:33 +0100, PeterL said...

Post by PeterL
Thanks for any comments

Peter, as far as I can see, you haven't said directly what A wrote down
for B on B's card, which B signed for. You have only told us what B
wrote down on C's card in the marker's column, which I think is only
relevant for checking purposes.
I don't understand how the software could have noticed a difference in
player B's score - presumably the club sec only entered it once? Was it
a difference between gross score and Stableford?
But anyway, it is the gross score on B's card which is important. If he
signed for a wrong score that was higher than what it should have been,
the score should stand, and he should not be DQ'ed, regardless of what
he or his marker wrote down for his Stableford points. At least as far
as I understand the rules, but I am not always right.
The rule in question is 6-6 Scoring in Stroke Play, specifically 6-6 d,
6-6 d. Wrong Score for Hole
The competitor is responsible for the correctness of the score recorded
for each hole on his score card. If he returns a score for any hole
lower than actually taken, he is disqualified.
If he returns a score for any hole higher than actually taken, the score
as returned stands.
The Committee is responsible for the addition of scores and application
of the handicap recorded on the score card - see Rule 33-5
http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rules-and-Decisions/

Mark

Thanks for taking an interest.

It was a medal. Player A marked B's card with the correct gross score for
each hole but between them they both got the front 9 to add up to 42 when it
should properly have been 40. When the secretary entered player B's gross
scores on the Computer Input System, on a hole by hole basis, it gave a
total of 40 for the front 9 against the wrongly marked 42 on the card. The
secretary then checked the card that player B marked for player C and found
that player B had actually recorded two 5's against two holes that he
actually scored 4's on (don't ask how). His gross, therefore, for the front
9 would have added up to 42, which was wrong but which was consistent with
the 42 on his card marked by A.

Does that help?

[Mark Myers]

On Mon, 8 Aug 2011 22:33:02 +0100, PeterL said...

Post by PeterL

Post by Mark Myers
The rule in question is 6-6 Scoring in Stroke Play, specifically 6-6 d,
6-6 d. Wrong Score for Hole
The competitor is responsible for the correctness of the score recorded
for each hole on his score card. If he returns a score for any hole
lower than actually taken, he is disqualified.
If he returns a score for any hole higher than actually taken, the score
as returned stands.
The Committee is responsible for the addition of scores and application
of the handicap recorded on the score card - see Rule 33-5
http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rules-and-Decisions/

Mark
Thanks for taking an interest.
It was a medal. Player A marked B's card with the correct gross score for
each hole but between them they both got the front 9 to add up to 42 when it
should properly have been 40. When the secretary entered player B's gross
scores on the Computer Input System, on a hole by hole basis, it gave a
total of 40 for the front 9 against the wrongly marked 42 on the card. The
secretary then checked the card that player B marked for player C and found
that player B had actually recorded two 5's against two holes that he
actually scored 4's on (don't ask how). His gross, therefore, for the front
9 would have added up to 42, which was wrong but which was consistent with
the 42 on his card marked by A.
Does that help?

Yes it does, thanks. So the facts are that A wrote down B's correct
score for each hole, and B signed for them, but they also wrote down an
incorrect total for the front nine. And B wrote incorrect scores for two
holes in his marker's column on C's card.

I can't find any reference in the rules to the scores entered in the
markers column, and I don't think that they have any relevance other
than as an aid to help B and A agree that A has written the correct
scores for B. So in this case B's mistake with his own scores on C's
card isn't important, because by some fluke B still managed to sign for
correct scores on his own card.

The incorrect front nine total on B's card is not relevant because any
totalling up is not A or B's responsibility, and so B should not be
penalized for that error.

Note though - the paragraph above about markers scores is the only part
of this argument that I'm not wholly certain of. I hope someone (JPW?)
may be along in a day or too to confirm it.

Never-the-less, I think B has a case for saying that the DQ was not
fair. B should quote rule 6-6d highlighting note 1, which I quoted
above, and also decision 6-6d/2, which I'll quote below. The club sec
should have a rule book and decision book to hand somewhere, to look
this up.


Decision 6-6d/2
Total Score Recorded by Competitor Incorrect
Q. In stroke play, a competitor returns his score card to the Committee.
The hole-by-hole scores are correct, but the competitor records a total
score which is one stroke lower than his actual total score. Is the
competitor subject to penalty?

A. No. The competitor is responsible only for the correctness of the
score recorded for each hole =3F Rule 6-6d. The Committee is responsible
for the addition of scores =3F Rule 33-5. If the competitor records a
wrong total score, the Committee must correct the error, without penalty
to the competitor.

[JPW]

Post by Mark Myers
On Mon, 8 Aug 2011 22:33:02 +0100, PeterL said...

Post by PeterL

Post by Mark Myers
The rule in question is 6-6 Scoring in Stroke Play, specifically 6-6 d,
6-6 d. Wrong Score for Hole
The competitor is responsible for the correctness of the score recorded
for each hole on his score card. If he returns a score for any hole
lower than actually taken, he is disqualified.
If he returns a score for any hole higher than actually taken, the score
as returned stands.
The Committee is responsible for the addition of scores and application
of the handicap recorded on the score card - see Rule 33-5
http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rules-and-Decisions/

Mark
Thanks for taking an interest.
It was a medal.  Player A marked B's card with the correct gross score for
each hole but between them they both got the front 9 to add up to 42 when it
should properly have been 40.  When the secretary entered  player B's gross
scores on the Computer Input System, on a hole by hole basis, it gave a
total of 40 for the front 9 against the wrongly marked 42 on the card.  The
secretary then checked the card that player B marked for player C and found
that player B had actually recorded two 5's against two holes that he
actually scored 4's on (don't ask how). His gross, therefore, for the front
9 would have added up to 42, which was wrong but which was consistent with
the 42 on his card marked by A.
Does that help?

Yes it does, thanks. So the facts are that A wrote down B's correct
score for each hole, and B signed for them, but they also wrote down an
incorrect total for the front nine. And B wrote incorrect scores for two
holes in his marker's column on C's card.
I can't find any reference in the rules to the scores entered in the
markers column, and I don't think that they have any relevance other
than as an aid to help B and A agree that A has written the correct
scores for B. So in this case B's mistake with his own scores on C's
card isn't important, because by some fluke B still managed to sign for
correct scores on his own card.
The incorrect front nine total on B's card is not relevant because any
totalling up is not A or B's responsibility, and so B should not be
penalized for that error.
Note though - the paragraph above about markers scores is the only part
of this argument that I'm not wholly certain of. I hope someone (JPW?)
may be along in a day or too to confirm it.
Never-the-less, I think B has a case for saying that the DQ was not
fair. B should quote rule 6-6d highlighting note 1, which I quoted
above, and also decision 6-6d/2, which I'll quote below. The club sec
should have a rule book and decision book to hand somewhere, to look
this up.
Decision 6-6d/2
Total Score Recorded by Competitor Incorrect
Q. In stroke play, a competitor returns his score card to the Committee.
The hole-by-hole scores are correct, but the competitor records a total
score which is one stroke lower than his actual total score. Is the
competitor subject to penalty?
A. No. The competitor is responsible only for the correctness of the
score recorded for each hole =3F Rule 6-6d. The Committee is responsible
for the addition of scores =3F Rule 33-5. If the competitor records a
wrong total score, the Committee must correct the error, without penalty
to the competitor.
--
Mark Myers
usenet at mcm2007 dot plus dot com

Mark and Peter,

Having read your posts today I concur totally with what Mark has said.
On the basis of gross scores recorded at each hole there is no DQ (see
Decisions)

However I've just jumped into the Secretary's shoes. When the card
total didn't
agree with the computer I say "Lets have a look at the marker's card
to see if
it has been recorded in the marker's column" and I see two fives
written by the player
during play. This coincides with the two strokes difference in the
total recorded.
Being a sceptic by nature I become suspicious.

Were I really the Secretary I would then interview the players
separately to try to determine
whether the score should really be 42 and not 40. But if both players
were happy with
40 then as per the book the score is 40. But doubt would remain
nevertheless. Without such a
clarification the DQ is unjustified. The score should stand!

As far as the necessity for a marker's score to be present there is no
guide. It is merely up
to the individual player but unusual not to see it.

JPW