Foursomes - Rules

[AS]

We were playing a Chapman foursome (each player drives, plays a second
shot, the team select the best ball and play alternately thereafter).
Good fun on a damp day!

Anyhow, A and B drove and played their respective second shots. B's did
not go far whilst A's was walloped and headed into the distance but
disappeared. A then stood over B's ball and said "Shall I play this
provisionally to save time?" conscious of the traffic behind us. He did
so. A's ball was found and duly played.

The massed wisdom (?) in the 19th deduced that this was proper but,
having declared a shot provisional, the team was bound to play A's ball
if it was found.

Any thoughts?

AS

[M L Wadsworth]

Post by AS
We were playing a Chapman foursome (each player drives, plays a second
shot, the team select the best ball and play alternately thereafter). Good
fun on a damp day!
Anyhow, A and B drove and played their respective second shots. B's did
not go far whilst A's was walloped and headed into the distance but
disappeared. A then stood over B's ball and said "Shall I play this
provisionally to save time?" conscious of the traffic behind us. He did
so. A's ball was found and duly played.
The massed wisdom (?) in the 19th deduced that this was proper but, having
declared a shot provisional, the team was bound to play A's ball if it was
found.
Any thoughts?
AS

Interesting name: I have not heard that format called a Chapman Foursome
before.

I have always known it as a Rye Foursome.

What part of the world are you in?



The format is, of course, not covered by the Rules of Golf so we have to get
as close as we can to them.



After both players have made their second strokes, A's ball is in play but
may become a lost ball.

B's ball is also play.



The side needs to select one of the balls and abandon the other at that
point.

A provisional ball may not be played, because the side has a ball which is
not lost (B's ball).



If A's ball is found before B's ball is played by A, then the side may
select either ball to complete the hole.

If A's ball is not found, the side has no option but to continue with B's
ball.



Only had there been a possibility that both balls were lost or out of bounds
after the respective second strokes, could a provisional ball have been
played.

The side could then play only one provisional ball and would need to decide
before going forward to search, whether A should play a provisional ball
from where B made his second stroke or whether B should play a provisional
ball from where A made his second stroke, effectively deciding then, which
ball to select if both balls were lost or out of bounds.



If neither of the original balls is found in bounds, the provisional ball
would become the ball in play.

If only one of the original balls is found in bounds, that becomes the
(selected) ball in play and the provisional ball must be abandoned.

If both of the original balls are found in bounds, then the provisional ball
must be abandoned and the side must select one of the two original balls
with which to complete the hole.



To rule in any other way, effectively gives the side further choices: play
B's ball, find and play A's ball or ignore A's ball and continue with the
provisional ball or one of the provisional balls if one was played for each
original ball.



In the situation you describe, when A played B's ball he was not playing a
provisional ball even if he announced it as such. The side had effectively
selected B's ball to continue play with and A's ball was no longer in play.





With any format which is not covered by the Rules of Golf (Greensomes, Texas
Scrambles, etc), if it is going to be played as a competition, the Committee
needs to set down what adaptations of the Rules of Golf are to apply.





HTH,



Malcolm

[Paul Schmitz-Josten]

Post by M L Wadsworth
Interesting name: I have not heard that format called a Chapman Foursome
before.
I have always known it as a Rye Foursome.
What part of the world are you in?

I don't want to speak for AS but from the news path he might live in the
Netherlands.

Chapman Foursome ("Vierer") is also the term used in Germany.
Furtheron we know the variations "classic foursome" (only one ball per team
as covered by the RoG) and "foursome with selected drive" (ball selection
after both have teed off, "greensome" in English).

Post by M L Wadsworth
The format is, of course, not covered by the Rules of Golf so we have to get
as close as we can to them.
After both players have made their second strokes, A's ball is in play but
may become a lost ball.
B's ball is also play.
The side needs to select one of the balls and abandon the other at that
point.
A provisional ball may not be played, because the side has a ball which is
not lost (B's ball).

<snip>

Post by M L Wadsworth
In the situation you describe, when A played B's ball he was not playing a
provisional ball even if he announced it as such. The side had effectively
selected B's ball to continue play with and A's ball was no longer in play.

Thank you for freshening up my memory - I didn't get it straight by myself.

Does this imply that provisionals are possible after the (first) tee shots
when there is no obligation to chose a ball?


Anyway, when playing _and_selecting_ the provisional ball the team will be
punished with stroke&distance, making it a costly choice to abandon the
"good" ball (B's ball in the example) unless it is in a very bad lie, for
example in the rough or a water hazard.


And while we talk about non-standard games on the course, look at this:
<http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7402115.html>
It's a US patent!

C<huckling>iao,

Paul

[M L Wadsworth]

Post by Paul Schmitz-Josten

Post by M L Wadsworth
Interesting name: I have not heard that format called a Chapman Foursome
before.
I have always known it as a Rye Foursome.
What part of the world are you in?

I don't want to speak for AS but from the news path he might live in the
Netherlands.
Chapman Foursome ("Vierer") is also the term used in Germany.
Furtheron we know the variations "classic foursome" (only one ball per team
as covered by the RoG) and "foursome with selected drive" (ball selection
after both have teed off, "greensome" in English).
snip>
Does this imply that provisionals are possible after the (first) tee shots
when there is no obligation to chose a ball?
Anyway, when playing _and_selecting_ the provisional ball the team will be
punished with stroke&distance, making it a costly choice to abandon the
"good" ball (B's ball in the example) unless it is in a very bad lie, for
example in the rough or a water hazard.
<http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7402115.html>
It's a US patent!
C<huckling>iao,
Paul

Thank you Paul for the background on Chapman Foursomes

Post by Paul Schmitz-Josten
Does this imply that provisional are possible after the (first) tee shots
when there is no obligation to chose a ball?

In my opinion, the logical answer must be yes.
A would play a provisional ball for his ball and B would play a provisional
ball for his ball.
The provisional ball only becomes the second stroke played (score of 3) if
the original ball is not found.
But we must remember we are making up our own Rules for Chapman Foursomes.

Regards,
Malcolm
With reference to the US Patent :-)
- golfers in the USA have the awful habit of calling a four-ball a foursome.

[Paul Schmitz-Josten]

Post by M L Wadsworth

Post by Paul Schmitz-Josten
Does this imply that provisional are possible after the (first) tee shots
when there is no obligation to chose a ball?

In my opinion, the logical answer must be yes.
A would play a provisional ball for his ball and B would play a provisional
ball for his ball.

No question when both balls may be lost; I was aiming at a situation with
one ball affected - different judgement?

Post by M L Wadsworth
But we must remember we are making up our own Rules for Chapman Foursomes.

This becomes clearer from minute to minute, though many will consider
_their_ set of rules universally valid.

Post by M L Wadsworth
With reference to the US Patent :-)
- golfers in the USA have the awful habit of calling a four-ball a foursome.

This may have changed when I come to play there ;->

Ciao,

Paul

[M L Wadsworth]

Post by Paul Schmitz-Josten

Post by M L Wadsworth

Post by Paul Schmitz-Josten
Does this imply that provisional are possible after the (first) tee shots
when there is no obligation to chose a ball?

In my opinion, the logical answer must be yes.
A would play a provisional ball for his ball and B would play a provisional
ball for his ball.

No question when both balls may be lost; I was aiming at a situation with
one ball affected - different judgement?

Post by M L Wadsworth
But we must remember we are making up our own Rules for Chapman Foursomes.

This becomes clearer from minute to minute, though many will consider
_their_ set of rules universally valid.

Post by M L Wadsworth
With reference to the US Patent :-)
- golfers in the USA have the awful habit of calling a four-ball a foursome.

This may have changed when I come to play there ;->
Ciao,
Paul

Paul,



The situation as I see it is this:

The two players are playing 4-ball for two strokes and then foursomes for
the remainder of the hole.

A player could either play a stroke from the teeing ground and then his
second stroke or,

He could play a stroke from the teeing ground plus a provisional ball and
then, if the original ball was found in bounds, make a second stroke at it
and lift/abandon the provisional ball.

If the original ball was lost or out of bounds, his second stroke was that
in putting his provisional ball into play (lying three because of the
penalty stroke for a lost ball).



The problems begin when the provisional ball fails to carry the distance of
the original ball and the player wishes to make a further stroke at the
provisional ball.

Should he do so and the provisional ball became his ball in play, he has
effectively selected his ball as the ball to continue the hole with, but the
second stroke at it should have been played by his partner.

The alternative is that the partner must make the second stroke at the
provisional ball, which would select it as the ball to continue the hole
with, should the original ball become a lost ball.



It would seem therefore that if a provisional ball is played following the
first stroke from the teeing ground, no further stroke should be made at
that provisional ball, otherwise it risks becoming the selected ball while
the partner's ball may well be in a better position after 2 strokes than the
player's provisional ball after 3 strokes (lying 4).



Malcolm

[Peter]

On Mar 10, 10:30 am, "M L Wadsworth"

Post by M L Wadsworth
- golfers in the USA have the awful habit of calling a four-ball a foursome.

Yes, we do, and it's odious of us to do so. Trying to stop that
practice
is like trying to hold back a waterfall.
Same goes for calling a flagstick a flag, or a pin, or calling a
bunker a sand trap.
I've given up -- even mentioning it in casual rounds is enough to
start
unpleasantness.
Worse yet: US golfers call a spoon a 3-wood, a cleek a 2-iron, a
mashie a 5-iron,
a mashie-niblick a 7-iron, and a niblick a 9-iron. How gauche can it
get?
Oh, the shame!

[AS]

Post by M L Wadsworth
Interesting name: I have not heard that format called a Chapman Foursome
before.
I have always known it as a Rye Foursome.
What part of the world are you in?

1. In the Yorkshire part of Holland....!
2. Chapman foursomes hail from the good ol' US of A
(turf.lib.msu.edu/1950s/1954/540620.pdf)
3. Hmmm.. well, afaiac, the team played an 'honest process' i.e. A said
'Well I've hit my ball forward - might be lost, might not. I'll play B's
ball provisionally and if we find my ball, however awful its position,
it's the ball in play.' Seems analagous to any other sort of provisional
ball EXCEPT there was no stated acceptance of a possible penalty
(because we didn't think off it!!).

It kept the 19th gassing for ages which is, of course, the point of
golf.....

AS

[M L Wadsworth]

Post by AS

Post by M L Wadsworth
Interesting name: I have not heard that format called a Chapman Foursome
before.
I have always known it as a Rye Foursome.
What part of the world are you in?

1. In the Yorkshire part of Holland....!
2. Chapman foursomes hail from the good ol' US of A
(turf.lib.msu.edu/1950s/1954/540620.pdf)
3. Hmmm.. well, afaiac, the team played an 'honest process' i.e. A said
'Well I've hit my ball forward - might be lost, might not. I'll play B's
ball provisionally and if we find my ball, however awful its position,
it's the ball in play.' Seems analagous to any other sort of provisional
ball EXCEPT there was no stated acceptance of a possible penalty (because
we didn't think off it!!).
It kept the 19th gassing for ages which is, of course, the point of
golf.....
AS

The problem is that A did not put B's ball into play: it was already a ball
in play.

Both players had played their second strokes and the time had come to make a
selection.

The side's choices were:

a) select B's ball;

b) select A's ball;

c) select A's ball but in case it becomes a ball lost or out of bounds,
get B to drop and play a provisional ball at the spot where A played his
second stroke.



What actually happened was that the side delayed their selection until they
saw the outcome of A's stroke at B's ball.



Imagine there had not been a possibility of A's ball being lost outside a
water hazard. It was either on the closely mown area before or just beyond
a drainage ditch (water hazard) that crosses the fairway before the putting
green but was out of view when standing at B's ball.

Would you really allow the side, after A played B's ball and hit it into the
drainage ditch, to now abandon B's ball and continue with A's ball when
they find that it had crossed the ditch and was lying on the putting green?



Malcolm

[AS]

Post by M L Wadsworth
a) select B's ball;
b) select A's ball;
c) select A's ball but in case it becomes a ball lost or out of bounds,
get B to drop and play a provisional ball at the spot where A played his
second stroke.
What actually happened was that the side delayed their selection until they
saw the outcome of A's stroke at B's ball.

Well, since we're also talking practicalities here, with Saturday
morning traffic building up behind, I like 'c' the best as it removes
the (accidental) advantage gained. It won't happen again until next
year, by which time I shall have forgotten.

AS

[JohnT]

Post by AS
We were playing a Chapman foursome (each player drives, plays a second
shot, the team select the best ball and play alternately thereafter).
Good fun on a damp day!
Anyhow, A and B drove and played their respective second shots. B's did
not go far whilst A's was walloped and headed into the distance but
disappeared. A then stood over B's ball and said "Shall I play this
provisionally to save time?" conscious of the traffic behind us. He did
so. A's ball was found and duly played.
The massed wisdom (?) in the 19th deduced that this was proper but,
having declared a shot provisional, the team was bound to play A's ball
if it was found.
Any thoughts?
AS

Malcolm has given a very thorough reply. It really comes down to "Can
the side have extra choices?" In your scenario, were A & B committed
to an honest process? If the provisional ball was an absolute corker
and finished two feet from the hole, would they have even looked for
the original ball? If the provisional ball was a good straight shot
into the fairway, and when they looked for the original ball and found
it in a unplayable position, would they have taken the medicine and
abandoned the provisional ball and proceeded with the original in the
unplayable position? There is a good reason why the ruling bodies
cannot rule on these (fun and enjoyable) variations of the game.

JohnT

[Paul Schmitz-Josten]

JohnT in

Post by JohnT
It really comes down to "Can
the side have extra choices?" In your scenario, were A & B committed
to an honest process? If the provisional ball was an absolute corker
and finished two feet from the hole, would they have even looked for
the original ball? If the provisional ball was a good straight shot
into the fairway, and when they looked for the original ball and found
it in a unplayable position, would they have taken the medicine and
abandoned the provisional ball and proceeded with the original in the
unplayable position?

IMO, this is nothing special for a foursome. The same requirement of an
"honest process" applies to any provisional ball - you'll always have to
abandon it when the original re-appears, and the price for "not looking"
(which is perfectly permissible) is stroke&distance, also in a singles
game.

Instead, I'll cling to Malcolms thoughts:

|The side needs to select one of the balls and abandon the other at that
|point.

I understand that, after both balls have been played, there is only room
for the decision between balls A and B, and the decision to play the
provisional can only be done after that.

Only if _both_ balls may be lost or OOB, two provisionals are permitted.

Alas, we'll have to keep in mind that there are no official rules for this
detail, only common sense and practice. Any CC may provide their own rules
of competition if they want.

Ciao,

Paul, CC of a greensome tournament last November (without RoCs)

[david s-a]

We call it Chapman Fours here...Oz!

cheers
david

Post by AS
We were playing a Chapman foursome (each player drives, plays a second
shot, the team select the best ball and play alternately thereafter).
Good fun on a damp day!
Anyhow, A and B drove and played their respective second shots. B's did
not go far whilst A's was walloped and headed into the distance but
disappeared. A then stood over B's ball and said "Shall I play this
provisionally to save time?" conscious of the traffic behind us. He did
so. A's ball was found and duly played.
The massed wisdom (?) in the 19th deduced that this was proper but,
having declared a shot provisional, the team was bound to play A's ball
if it was found.
Any thoughts?
AS