Mixed Greensomes

[Denis Cary]

I am shortly required to organise a mixed greensomes competition and would
appreciate some advice for handicap allowance.

The SSS for ladies is 74 and 70 for men.

Denis

[MaggieB]

Most people use half the combined handicaps but the fairer was of
calculating the handicap is to take 60% of the higher handicap and add to
40% of the lower handicap.
This is called a Greensome Medal Handicap - if you are playing a Stableford
you allow 7/8 of the GMH and if you are playing a medal you have full
allowance.
It may sound complicated but it's fairer.
I have a very posh spreadsheet which makes it easy to calculate if you want
me to e-mail it to you.

[Denis Cary]

Post by MaggieB
Most people use half the combined handicaps but the fairer was of
calculating the handicap is to take 60% of the higher handicap and add to
40% of the lower handicap.
This is called a Greensome Medal Handicap - if you are playing a Stableford
you allow 7/8 of the GMH and if you are playing a medal you have full
allowance.
It may sound complicated but it's fairer.
I have a very posh spreadsheet which makes it easy to calculate if you want
me to e-mail it to you.
Are the ladies not entitled to some adjustment to their handicap to
recognise the difference between men's and Ladies SSS?

Denis

[John Turner]

Post by MaggieB
Most people use half the combined handicaps but the fairer was of
calculating the handicap is to take 60% of the higher handicap and add to
40% of the lower handicap.
This is called a Greensome Medal Handicap - if you are playing a Stableford
you allow 7/8 of the GMH and if you are playing a medal you have full
allowance.
It may sound complicated but it's fairer.
I have a very posh spreadsheet which makes it easy to calculate if you want
me to e-mail it to you.

Actually, in the CONGU Unified Handicapping System the recommended (and in
Ireland mandated) Greensome handicap is 60% of the lower handicap plus 40%
of the higher. It further states that in Stableford you should use the full
Greensome handicap. I presume that you would first of all modify the
handicaps as per the CONGU instructions on Mixed Events first.

Cheers

John

[MaggieB]

Yes John I got it the wrong way round!!! - should be 60% of the lower
handicap and 40% of the higher.
We have not adopted the CONGU recommendations of full allowance for singles
and 1/2 for foursomes so we still do 7/8 of GMH for Greensome Stableford!
I think as Greensome is an easy format of golf there should be no adjustment
to the ladies handicap for the difference in the SSS - after all the ladies
will be driving from their own tees and there is a choice. I'm not so sure
that the recommendations for mixed events in the CONGU book relates to
foursomes and Greesomes anyway

Post by John Turner

Post by MaggieB
Most people use half the combined handicaps but the fairer was of
calculating the handicap is to take 60% of the higher handicap and add to
40% of the lower handicap.
This is called a Greensome Medal Handicap - if you are playing a Stableford
you allow 7/8 of the GMH and if you are playing a medal you have full
allowance.
It may sound complicated but it's fairer.
I have a very posh spreadsheet which makes it easy to calculate if you want
me to e-mail it to you.

Actually, in the CONGU Unified Handicapping System the recommended (and in
Ireland mandated) Greensome handicap is 60% of the lower handicap plus 40%
of the higher. It further states that in Stableford you should use the full
Greensome handicap. I presume that you would first of all modify the
handicaps as per the CONGU instructions on Mixed Events first.
Cheers
John

[Denis Cary]

Post by MaggieB
Yes John I got it the wrong way round!!! - should be 60% of the lower
handicap and 40% of the higher.
We have not adopted the CONGU recommendations of full allowance for singles
and 1/2 for foursomes so we still do 7/8 of GMH for Greensome Stableford!
I think as Greensome is an easy format of golf there should be no adjustment
to the ladies handicap for the difference in the SSS - after all the ladies
will be driving from their own tees and there is a choice. I'm not so sure
that the recommendations for mixed events in the CONGU book relates to
foursomes and Greesomes anyway

Post by John Turner

Post by MaggieB
Most people use half the combined handicaps but the fairer was of
calculating the handicap is to take 60% of the higher handicap and add

to

Post by John Turner

Post by MaggieB
40% of the lower handicap.
This is called a Greensome Medal Handicap - if you are playing a Stableford
you allow 7/8 of the GMH and if you are playing a medal you have full
allowance.
It may sound complicated but it's fairer.
I have a very posh spreadsheet which makes it easy to calculate if you want
me to e-mail it to you.

Actually, in the CONGU Unified Handicapping System the recommended (and in
Ireland mandated) Greensome handicap is 60% of the lower handicap plus 40%
of the higher. It further states that in Stableford you should use the

full

Post by John Turner
Greensome handicap. I presume that you would first of all modify the
handicaps as per the CONGU instructions on Mixed Events first.
Cheers
John

The fact that ladies will be using their own tees applies also to match
play where an adjustment to ladies handicaps is made.

Is the fact that there is a choice of second shot the justification for no
adjustment.?
Here I am making a case for giving some advantage to the ladies!

Denis

[MaggieB]

I think the adjustment is only applicable for singles and not for foursomes

Post by Denis Cary

Post by MaggieB
Yes John I got it the wrong way round!!! - should be 60% of the lower
handicap and 40% of the higher.
We have not adopted the CONGU recommendations of full allowance for singles
and 1/2 for foursomes so we still do 7/8 of GMH for Greensome Stableford!
I think as Greensome is an easy format of golf there should be no adjustment
to the ladies handicap for the difference in the SSS - after all the ladies
will be driving from their own tees and there is a choice. I'm not so sure
that the recommendations for mixed events in the CONGU book relates to
foursomes and Greesomes anyway

Post by John Turner

Post by MaggieB
Most people use half the combined handicaps but the fairer was of
calculating the handicap is to take 60% of the higher handicap and add

to

Post by John Turner

Post by MaggieB
40% of the lower handicap.
This is called a Greensome Medal Handicap - if you are playing a Stableford
you allow 7/8 of the GMH and if you are playing a medal you have full
allowance.
It may sound complicated but it's fairer.
I have a very posh spreadsheet which makes it easy to calculate if

you

Post by Denis Cary

Post by MaggieB

Post by John Turner

Post by MaggieB
want
me to e-mail it to you.

Actually, in the CONGU Unified Handicapping System the recommended (and in
Ireland mandated) Greensome handicap is 60% of the lower handicap plus 40%
of the higher. It further states that in Stableford you should use the

full

Post by John Turner
Greensome handicap. I presume that you would first of all modify the
handicaps as per the CONGU instructions on Mixed Events first.
Cheers
John

The fact that ladies will be using their own tees applies also to match
play where an adjustment to ladies handicaps is made.

Is the fact that there is a choice of second shot the justification for no
adjustment.?
Here I am making a case for giving some advantage to the ladies!
Denis

[Sam]

Post by Denis Cary

Post by MaggieB
Yes John I got it the wrong way round!!! - should be 60% of the lower
handicap and 40% of the higher.
We have not adopted the CONGU recommendations of full allowance for singles
and 1/2 for foursomes so we still do 7/8 of GMH for Greensome Stableford!
I think as Greensome is an easy format of golf there should be no adjustment
to the ladies handicap for the difference in the SSS - after all the ladies
will be driving from their own tees and there is a choice. I'm not so sure
that the recommendations for mixed events in the CONGU book relates to
foursomes and Greesomes anyway

Post by John Turner

Post by MaggieB
Most people use half the combined handicaps but the fairer was of
calculating the handicap is to take 60% of the higher handicap and add

to

Post by John Turner

Post by MaggieB
40% of the lower handicap.
This is called a Greensome Medal Handicap - if you are playing a Stableford
you allow 7/8 of the GMH and if you are playing a medal you have full
allowance.
It may sound complicated but it's fairer.
I have a very posh spreadsheet which makes it easy to calculate if you want
me to e-mail it to you.

Actually, in the CONGU Unified Handicapping System the recommended (and in
Ireland mandated) Greensome handicap is 60% of the lower handicap plus 40%
of the higher. It further states that in Stableford you should use the

full

Post by John Turner
Greensome handicap. I presume that you would first of all modify the
handicaps as per the CONGU instructions on Mixed Events first.
Cheers
John

The fact that ladies will be using their own tees applies also to match
play where an adjustment to ladies handicaps is made.

Is the fact that there is a choice of second shot the justification for no
adjustment.?
Here I am making a case for giving some advantage to the ladies!
Denis

Denis,
Ladies only get additional shots when they are playing against the men. In a
mixed greensome they are (supposed to be) playing with a man as a partner
against other mixed pairs. Conserquently, the ladies get no additional
stroke allowance.

[JPW]

I know that it is not relevant to this discussion, Sam, but how about
an AmAm with four players one of whom is a woman. She is playing WITH
three men but AGAINST other teams in the field some of whom may be all
male and some mixed. Any difference?

Pat

[MaggieB]

If it is a 4BBB team game then her handicap is adjusted as per the CONGU
recommendations.

Post by JPW
I know that it is not relevant to this discussion, Sam, but how about
an AmAm with four players one of whom is a woman. She is playing WITH
three men but AGAINST other teams in the field some of whom may be all
male and some mixed. Any difference?
Pat

[Denis Cary]

Post by MaggieB
If it is a 4BBB team game then her handicap is adjusted as per the CONGU
recommendations.

Post by JPW
I know that it is not relevant to this discussion, Sam, but how about
an AmAm with four players one of whom is a woman. She is playing WITH
three men but AGAINST other teams in the field some of whom may be all
male and some mixed. Any difference?
Pat

Thanks for all the opinions. I expect that a suggestion by some players
that we should use a simple 50% of the joint handicaps will be accepted by
those who will make the decision.

Denis

[MaggieB]

But that is precisely why the Greensome Medal Handicap should be
calculated - because there is a choice of drives and therefore easier than
straight foursomes it is considered necessary to adjust the stoke allowance
of higher handicappers. ie. 40% of the higher and 60%of the lower instead of
50% of the combined handicaps.

That's why CONGU have suggested it!!!!!!!

Post by MaggieB
If it is a 4BBB team game then her handicap is adjusted as per the CONGU
recommendations.

Post by JPW
I know that it is not relevant to this discussion, Sam, but how about
an AmAm with four players one of whom is a woman. She is playing WITH
three men but AGAINST other teams in the field some of whom may be all
male and some mixed. Any difference?
Pat

Thanks for all the opinions. I expect that a suggestion by some players
that we should use a simple 50% of the joint handicaps will be accepted by
those who will make the decision.

Denis

[Denis Cary]

Post by MaggieB
But that is precisely why the Greensome Medal Handicap should be
calculated - because there is a choice of drives and therefore easier than
straight foursomes it is considered necessary to adjust the stoke allowance
of higher handicappers. ie. 40% of the higher and 60%of the lower instead of
50% of the combined handicaps.
That's why CONGU have suggested it!!!!!!!

Post by MaggieB
If it is a 4BBB team game then her handicap is adjusted as per the CONGU
recommendations.

Post by JPW
I know that it is not relevant to this discussion, Sam, but how about
an AmAm with four players one of whom is a woman. She is playing WITH
three men but AGAINST other teams in the field some of whom may be all
male and some mixed. Any difference?
Pat

Thanks for all the opinions. I expect that a suggestion by some players
that we should use a simple 50% of the joint handicaps will be accepted

by

Post by MaggieB
those who will make the decision.

Denis
Maggie

I did not doubt your comments. I merely said that I expected others
would make a decision that did not necessarily agree with you. However, I
decided that I would, myself, investigate matters and discover the following
on the CONGU site
'For Foursomes and Greensomes the Ladies' handicaps should have the
adjustment added before the partnereships' handicap is calculated'. This is
to be found on http://www.congu.com/template1.asp?pid=165..
This was what I was searching for with my original request.

Denis

[John Turner]

Post by Denis Cary

Post by MaggieB
But that is precisely why the Greensome Medal Handicap should be
calculated - because there is a choice of drives and therefore easier than
straight foursomes it is considered necessary to adjust the stoke allowance
of higher handicappers. ie. 40% of the higher and 60%of the lower instead of
50% of the combined handicaps.
That's why CONGU have suggested it!!!!!!!

Post by MaggieB
If it is a 4BBB team game then her handicap is adjusted as per the CONGU
recommendations.

Post by JPW
I know that it is not relevant to this discussion, Sam, but how about
an AmAm with four players one of whom is a woman. She is playing WITH
three men but AGAINST other teams in the field some of whom may be all
male and some mixed. Any difference?
Pat

Thanks for all the opinions. I expect that a suggestion by some players
that we should use a simple 50% of the joint handicaps will be accepted

by

Post by MaggieB
those who will make the decision.

Denis
Maggie

I did not doubt your comments. I merely said that I expected others
would make a decision that did not necessarily agree with you. However, I
decided that I would, myself, investigate matters and discover the
following on the CONGU site
'For Foursomes and Greensomes the Ladies' handicaps should have the
adjustment added before the partnereships' handicap is calculated'. This
is to be found on http://www.congu.com/template1.asp?pid=165..
This was what I was searching for with my original request.
Denis

Which is what I believed I said in my earlier post - at least that is what I
surmised.

[Denis Cary]

Post by John Turner

Post by Denis Cary

Post by MaggieB
But that is precisely why the Greensome Medal Handicap should be
calculated - because there is a choice of drives and therefore easier than
straight foursomes it is considered necessary to adjust the stoke allowance
of higher handicappers. ie. 40% of the higher and 60%of the lower instead of
50% of the combined handicaps.
That's why CONGU have suggested it!!!!!!!

Post by MaggieB
If it is a 4BBB team game then her handicap is adjusted as per the CONGU
recommendations.

Post by JPW
I know that it is not relevant to this discussion, Sam, but how about
an AmAm with four players one of whom is a woman. She is playing WITH
three men but AGAINST other teams in the field some of whom may be all
male and some mixed. Any difference?
Pat

Thanks for all the opinions. I expect that a suggestion by some players
that we should use a simple 50% of the joint handicaps will be accepted

by

Post by MaggieB
those who will make the decision.

Denis
Maggie

I did not doubt your comments. I merely said that I expected others
would make a decision that did not necessarily agree with you. However, I
decided that I would, myself, investigate matters and discover the
following on the CONGU site
'For Foursomes and Greensomes the Ladies' handicaps should have the
adjustment added before the partnereships' handicap is calculated'. This
is to be found on http://www.congu.com/template1.asp?pid=165..
This was what I was searching for with my original request.
Denis

Which is what I believed I said in my earlier post - at least that is what
I surmised.
And as I thought it may be but there has been conflicting views

Denis

[MaggieB]

But surely this is only application when the ladies are required to play off
the mens tees which is not usually the case in foursomes and Greensomes

Post by John Turner

Post by Denis Cary

Post by MaggieB
But that is precisely why the Greensome Medal Handicap should be
calculated - because there is a choice of drives and therefore easier than
straight foursomes it is considered necessary to adjust the stoke allowance
of higher handicappers. ie. 40% of the higher and 60%of the lower

instead

Post by John Turner

Post by Denis Cary

Post by MaggieB
of
50% of the combined handicaps.
That's why CONGU have suggested it!!!!!!!

Post by MaggieB
If it is a 4BBB team game then her handicap is adjusted as per the CONGU
recommendations.

Post by JPW
I know that it is not relevant to this discussion, Sam, but how about
an AmAm with four players one of whom is a woman. She is playing WITH
three men but AGAINST other teams in the field some of whom may be all
male and some mixed. Any difference?
Pat

Thanks for all the opinions. I expect that a suggestion by some players
that we should use a simple 50% of the joint handicaps will be accepted

by

Post by MaggieB
those who will make the decision.

Denis
Maggie

I did not doubt your comments. I merely said that I expected others
would make a decision that did not necessarily agree with you. However, I
decided that I would, myself, investigate matters and discover the
following on the CONGU site
'For Foursomes and Greensomes the Ladies' handicaps should have the
adjustment added before the partnereships' handicap is calculated'. This
is to be found on http://www.congu.com/template1.asp?pid=165..
This was what I was searching for with my original request.
Denis

Which is what I believed I said in my earlier post - at least that is what I
surmised.

[Denis Cary]

Post by MaggieB
But surely this is only application when the ladies are required to play off
the mens tees which is not usually the case in foursomes and Greensomes

Post by John Turner

Post by Denis Cary

Post by MaggieB
But that is precisely why the Greensome Medal Handicap should be
calculated - because there is a choice of drives and therefore easier than
straight foursomes it is considered necessary to adjust the stoke allowance
of higher handicappers. ie. 40% of the higher and 60%of the lower

instead

Post by John Turner

Post by Denis Cary

Post by MaggieB
of
50% of the combined handicaps.
That's why CONGU have suggested it!!!!!!!

Post by MaggieB
If it is a 4BBB team game then her handicap is adjusted as per the CONGU
recommendations.

Post by JPW
I know that it is not relevant to this discussion, Sam, but how

about

Post by John Turner

Post by Denis Cary

Post by MaggieB

Post by MaggieB

Post by JPW
an AmAm with four players one of whom is a woman. She is playing

WITH

Post by John Turner

Post by Denis Cary

Post by MaggieB

Post by MaggieB

Post by JPW
three men but AGAINST other teams in the field some of whom may be all
male and some mixed. Any difference?
Pat

Thanks for all the opinions. I expect that a suggestion by some

players

Post by John Turner

Post by Denis Cary

Post by MaggieB

Post by MaggieB
that we should use a simple 50% of the joint handicaps will be

accepted

Post by John Turner

Post by Denis Cary

Post by MaggieB
by

Post by MaggieB
those who will make the decision.

Denis
Maggie

I did not doubt your comments. I merely said that I expected others
would make a decision that did not necessarily agree with you. However,

I

Post by John Turner

Post by Denis Cary
decided that I would, myself, investigate matters and discover the
following on the CONGU site
'For Foursomes and Greensomes the Ladies' handicaps should have the
adjustment added before the partnereships' handicap is calculated'. This
is to be found on http://www.congu.com/template1.asp?pid=165..
This was what I was searching for with my original request.
Denis

Which is what I believed I said in my earlier post - at least that is
what

I

Post by John Turner
surmised.

The following is also quoted in the CUNGU recommendation
In all Mixed Pairs competitions it is strongly recommended that the ladies
play from the Ladies' Tees, whatever the format

Denis

[MaggieB]

But surely John this is only applicable when the ladies play off the men's
tees which is not usually the case in foursomes and Greensomes?

Post by John Turner

Post by Denis Cary

Post by MaggieB
But that is precisely why the Greensome Medal Handicap should be
calculated - because there is a choice of drives and therefore easier than
straight foursomes it is considered necessary to adjust the stoke allowance
of higher handicappers. ie. 40% of the higher and 60%of the lower

instead

Post by John Turner

Post by Denis Cary

Post by MaggieB
of
50% of the combined handicaps.
That's why CONGU have suggested it!!!!!!!

Post by MaggieB
If it is a 4BBB team game then her handicap is adjusted as per the CONGU
recommendations.

Post by JPW
I know that it is not relevant to this discussion, Sam, but how about
an AmAm with four players one of whom is a woman. She is playing WITH
three men but AGAINST other teams in the field some of whom may be all
male and some mixed. Any difference?
Pat

Thanks for all the opinions. I expect that a suggestion by some players
that we should use a simple 50% of the joint handicaps will be accepted

by

Post by MaggieB
those who will make the decision.

Denis
Maggie

I did not doubt your comments. I merely said that I expected others
would make a decision that did not necessarily agree with you. However, I
decided that I would, myself, investigate matters and discover the
following on the CONGU site
'For Foursomes and Greensomes the Ladies' handicaps should have the
adjustment added before the partnereships' handicap is calculated'. This
is to be found on http://www.congu.com/template1.asp?pid=165..
This was what I was searching for with my original request.
Denis

Which is what I believed I said in my earlier post - at least that is what I
surmised.

[Janet and 'Hickory' Homer]

Post by MaggieB
But surely John this is only applicable when the ladies play off the men's
tees which is not usually the case in foursomes and Greensomes?

I think adjustments apply when ladies are playing off the men's card rather
than tees - I don't know of any comps (at least around here) where ladies
play off the men's tees but many where they play off their card. It is
likely, I would guess, that in mixed comps like foursomes and greensomes,
ladies would be playing off the men's card (par and SSS) which means, at
both courses I play on at any rate, quite a difference in both par and SSS
as there are several holes which are par fours for men that are fives for
ladies.

Peace and Love
Janet
Tee off to reply

[MaggieB]

Well I play a lot of mixed foursomes but have never added shots to my
handicap to adjust for the difference in SSS........and we always play off
the mens card and the ladies off the ladies tees.
Has any one done this in a mixed foursome?

Post by Janet and 'Hickory' Homer

Post by MaggieB
But surely John this is only applicable when the ladies play off the men's
tees which is not usually the case in foursomes and Greensomes?

I think adjustments apply when ladies are playing off the men's card rather
than tees - I don't know of any comps (at least around here) where ladies
play off the men's tees but many where they play off their card. It is
likely, I would guess, that in mixed comps like foursomes and greensomes,
ladies would be playing off the men's card (par and SSS) which means, at
both courses I play on at any rate, quite a difference in both par and SSS
as there are several holes which are par fours for men that are fives for
ladies.
Peace and Love
Janet
Tee off to reply

[Denis Cary]

Post by MaggieB
Well I play a lot of mixed foursomes but have never added shots to my
handicap to adjust for the difference in SSS........and we always play off
the mens card and the ladies off the ladies tees.
Has any one done this in a mixed foursome?

Post by Janet and 'Hickory' Homer

Post by MaggieB
But surely John this is only applicable when the ladies play off the

men's

Post by Janet and 'Hickory' Homer

Post by MaggieB
tees which is not usually the case in foursomes and Greensomes?

I think adjustments apply when ladies are playing off the men's card

rather

Post by Janet and 'Hickory' Homer
than tees - I don't know of any comps (at least around here) where ladies
play off the men's tees but many where they play off their card. It is
likely, I would guess, that in mixed comps like foursomes and greensomes,
ladies would be playing off the men's card (par and SSS) which means, at
both courses I play on at any rate, quite a difference in both par and SSS
as there are several holes which are par fours for men that are fives for
ladies.
Peace and Love
Janet
Tee off to reply

We must take care that we are aware that what we do is or is not the
recommendation.

I understand you reasoning that it is not necessary to adjust for SSS
difference in that for each pair the lady will have exactlty the
same number of strokes added to her handicap resulting in no difference in
the playing difference between the pairs
Denis

[Sam]

Post by JPW
I know that it is not relevant to this discussion, Sam, but how about
an AmAm with four players one of whom is a woman. She is playing WITH
three men but AGAINST other teams in the field some of whom may be all
male and some mixed. Any difference?
Pat

In any circumstance where a lady is competing directly (individually or as
part of a team) against men, the adjustment to reflect the difference in SSS
should be applied.

Actually, I think the EGU recommend adding this adjustment even in a mixed
foursomes competition. I presume is for consistency as the addition will be
the same addition for every team.

If you want cover all bases you should consider what happens if the ladies
play off the same tees as the men. Here they should be given additional
shots which, I think is 1 shot per 180 yards difference in the two courses
(because 180x / shot is, IIRC, the basis for ladies SSS)

So, at Northwood, ladies would get 2 shots (73 v 71).
Then if they played off the men's tees they would get an additional
(6553-5724)/180 = 5 (4.6) shots